Thursday, April 27, 2006
If you look at the chart at the bottom of the note from Tuesday, you will see that Simmons B. Buntin gave his survey takers just six choices when he asked them what they liked about online resources. Conversely, however, when he turned the question around, asking them what they liked least about online resources, Buntin left it open ended. He got, as a result some 114 answers, which he was able to group reasonably well into some three dozen master categories. But again, six categories predominated, groupings that were listed by nine or more respondents each – no other grouping had more than four. As the chart below suggests, five of the six “least liked” aspects of online poetry resources have to do with the aspects of online technology, only one with the quality of the work online, as such.

One might quibble as how much of the look & feel of online publications is due strictly to the technology (think of the formal constraints blogs face) vs. people having to learn a whole new discipline when contrasted with either offset or (better still) the type case drawers of letterpress technology. Or, for that matter, the overwhelming amount of work that’s available online – is that a feature of the web, or merely a secret that the web has revealed?
Having read several books – from Hardt & Negri’s Empire to Robert Duncan’s H.D. Book to, most recently, The Da Vinci Code (about which more anon), in e-book format on various Palm Pilots, one of the things I appreciate most about the new technology is its extremely portable nature – it’s lighter & more versatile than a hardback & even most paperbacks. But I have yet to see a good conversion of poetry’s spacing in a PDF file from a PC (where it will be absolutely perfect) to a pocket device. So, yes, the limitations are real, at least for the present.
When asked what the biggest misconception people have about poetry appearing online, at least 85 of the 103 responses were variants of the “online poetry is not as good as poetry in print” theme. Some of this no doubt is the absence of certain older poets from the online scene. Some of it is the inept use of HTML¹ some journals evidence. Some of it is the sense that certain mags online have had of printing anything and everything they get. And more than a little of this has to do with sites that get abandoned, or which fail to get updated, even as the zine promises the Spring ’03 issue is just around the corner. There is an interesting & fairly complex discussion to be had as to what happens exactly when an active site goes dark.
But when I read, for example, Bill Berkson’s masterful online chapbook in the current issue of Big Bridge, or when I see Norman Fischer’s “After Alberto Caeiro” in the same issue, it is evident to me at least that the upper limit of web publishing is every bit as high as it is for print.
We see these same somewhat conflicting messages again when Buntin what the “biggest truth” about poetry appearing online is. There were 104 responses, which he was able to cluster together into 35 basic groups, but again just four accounted for a substantial majority of the replies. The most common, cited 23 times, was that online poetry is that it achieves broad geographic distribution – it is more readily accessible than any print journal ever could be. But the second most commonly cited response – this is from an open-ended question, Buntin didn’t ask his respondents to pick from a list – is something of a perpendicular argument, taking a similar position but in a completely different direction: 13 folks noted that there is much greater exposure to a greater range of genres, commentary, and writers. Unlike the chain bookstore that carries mostly trade and university presses, or the small press cornucopia like Woodland Pattern that carries the absolute inverse of what you find at Borders, the web has everything, from the snooty neoformalism of William Logan to blogs devoted to slamming & the open-mic type sites like Poetry Super Highway. You want to check on the English-language poets of
But the next two commonly cited responses show us the conflict people have about the web directly. Twelve respondents commented that “Quality on the web varies widely,” while ten responded “Quality on the web is as good as it is in print.” Only one of these statements can be true in any deep sense of that term, but I think it’s an argument that you can hear both sides of, and that the line between one and the other is constantly being renegotiated. The long-term trend is that, in another decade at the very most, quality on the web should be utterly indistinguishable from quality in print, at least with regard to journals. Already the idea that an appearance in Poetry would have more value than one in Jacket is naïve at best.
The final four questions in Buntin’s survey reiterate themes already highlighted. Asked what additional poetry resources should be online, respondents generally asked for more, more, more of everything. In particular, audio resources, video resources, a centralized – and comprehensive – poem search engine linked to a far more complete inventory of texts by poets past & present. One senses that there is a fairly deep need for the work of writers who may be out of print, but still “in copyright” to be added onto the web. There have been a couple of repositories of out-of-print books, mostly in PDF format, but the logistics of a major repository obviously would be daunting. Similarly, the problems of web sites going dark and the lack of in copyright resources show up again in response to a request for “overall concerns about publishing on the web.” So does the debate over quality & the despair at just how much quantity there is already. That’s an interesting double-bind – there’s more poetry on the web than you will ever be able to read, but it doesn’t include, say, William Carlos Williams’ The Wedge or Robert Creeley’s Words, which might be the exact works you are looking for.
One person noted in the “additional comments” section that many print journals maintain “teaser” sites with a poem or two online to encourage you to acquire back issues. Those are a form of online publishing, of course, but basically they’re bad marketing. A press like Coach House that tends to put up entire books from its backlist and to treat the web as an interactive archive of its print efforts is far more likely to be the way presses are representing themselves on the web in a few years.
There was one question asking for recommendations, most of which were pretty standard words to the wise, e.g., Don’t enter competitions. One that did jump out at me was the suggestion that responding to blogs is a good way to get known. Curiously, tho, nobody mentioned that having a blog of your own has become the fastest and most popular method, a fairly interesting twist for a medium that is itself barely five years old. And one person, thinking no doubt of the issues of inept web design and programming, recommends keeping the formatting issues to a minimum. Someone else, of course, took exactly the opposite approach, suggesting that you take note of the fact that the web is, by definition now, multimedia.
¹ As has been mentioned more than once in the comments stream here over the past couple of years, I’m obviously a primitive when it comes to web design myself.
There are obviously many sites that are well presented, but most are just cluttered with too many options for the poetry ever to be read.
Klaus J. Gerken
Editor and Publisher
Ygdrasil Press
But "cluttering" is really a separate issue, one more of design from a layout perspective than from an accessibility perspective.
For example, there's no question there's a lot to choose from on Terrain.org: A Journal of the Bult & Natural Environments---more probably (at least in genres) than on most e-zines. Some could consider that clustered (sometimes I do, and I'm the editor!). And yet, that large offering brings, at least I hope, a wider audience to poetry as well as the other literature genres because it presents both literary and technical pieces, where exposure is generally only to one or the other. There are few e-zines that do both to any great extent.
I suppose my point is that sites where there's lots to choose from don't necessarily equal sites where the poetry is lost. But I would also agree that the more options there are, the most difficult it can be to choose and/or find any particular contribution, or even genre of contribution.
~~~~~
I should have the full results of the survey online by the end of the weekend, at http://www.terrain.org/survey.
Thanks much to Ron for exploring the results in such great detail here.
I think one thing about blogs: most of us who didn't grow up in the computer age and aren't very technically savvy have at best a cursory understanding of how they even work.
I for instance have no idea how to make links to other pages which seems almost a formal politeness requirement but I have no idea how to make those links.
A guy set up my blog for me, and then he disappeared so all the niceties don't make any sense.
What is your understanding of what a blog note should be? Do you think it has to be done every day?
I think that your poem to your wife is theonly poem of yours we've seen.
Mostly you are writing on others' poetry.
That wonderful experience we all seek out as we hurry to poetry readings and sit a tremble for it all to begin.
MiPO has certain podcasts out there. Bravo!
Charles Bernstein is out there with his great project. Just listened to "A Defense of Poetry" and found it intensely moving.
But then I realized that it wasn't until recently that I began podcasting and so the old paradigms seem not quite transcended.
So in the spirit of expanding this discussion to include broadcasting may I direct everyone's attention to some recent podcasts?
The latest "The Transgressive Poet" contains life changing epistemes (if that’s the world (sic) I want) of all sorts directed exactly at those poets trapped in a pleasant conformity to the Poetry World AS IT IS. It documents an ordinary day in the life of a transgressive poet who
has (forgive the verb that follows) interiorized Kent Johnson’s admonition to young post avant poets to stop blogging and engaging in the usual reindeer games and do something to show that they know life is short,
to defy the pezzonovantes of poesy and to live, to live! It’s called
“The Transgressive Poet” and may be found here.
http://thejeunessedoree.libsyn.com/
While there you may want to save your soul and download “The Sense of an Ending” and then wait to listen to that until you have heard the two parts of the exorcism of Kent Johnson, which, I am afraid, put an end to
the silliness of the Usual – including, for God’s sake, “Flarf” and its festivals of vacuum.
Thank you and may you transgress.
http://www.cortlandreview.com/
The survey did hit on audio/visual/multimedia a bit, and you'll see (when I post the full results) some responses, accordingly.
Has this site (as mine has) at the least included
Two journeys to Hell?
The Semifinal Poesy Battle on the Ramparts of Castle Dracula?
Poetry by Hitler's Cat?
The Final Guitar Stylings of Rin Tin Tin?
Two episodes of an exorcism ending in Kent Johnson descending from heaven in a SwanBoat?
Actual audio from a typical day in the life of a transgressive poet including an encounter with an eldritch mute from Hibbing. Minnesota who may be (actually) from the great Finnish national epic?
Ballads of the old sort with the guitar stylings of one of the greatest guitaristas of our time --Tim Smith?
and on and on.
There is a new paradigm now.
He believed that what he was writing, day to day, was important - could
change lives, to something more uplifting - positive...
Of course back then, the only real herald was the theatre - where he could
reach every level of society...
but now, with the internet, the herald is the internet - and though of course orphan children dying of AIDS in Africa don't have access - it reaches every level of society...
What would Shakespeare do? - He'd publish his works as they came to him - maybe fluffing some of lesser caliber - and, yes, perhaps 10% of what he
published were of merit - the other ninety percent having some interesting
bits... and having only published 10% of it all, that means, we get 1% of
Shakespeare raw - accomplished -
it's a hole writers must dig themselves in to -
Seems to me, everyone holds back, no one is truly sharing their work - Look at this wonderful device - yet noone (few) - are taking advantage of it...
blogs are anti-poetry - the formatting thing...
but what with those poets who've learned html (not so difficult - though I
realize Americans have problems with learning other languages...)
What about the Ouevre? - Why isn't every poet creating a website where their work happens as it happens - setting it there? There's no money in poetry anyways - and worrying about folk stealing your work - what better evidence in court than a poem published already...
Journals are nice, and important - but the individual poets need to divulge their ouevre - all of it - going back even before the advent of the web -
selling it to university libraries don't cut it anymore...
do it now...
why is everyone shaking?
w.
Because, if your goal is to be 'published' by an edited journal whether print or online, your poems likely wouldn't get accepted. More and more journals won't even accept poems that have been published---even if briefly---on blogs.
If that's not your goal (and I admit that's the old paradigm, but probably still the paradigm most writers follow) then that's not a good answer. But I think it is still the goal for most writers who want to be read.
And then of course, there's getting to that particularly innovative poet's site, like mentioned previously. And then there's assuming anyone would want to read it---take the time to decipher the good from the bad. Is that a reasonable request assuming some sort of readership is a goal?
The Bard would be bored with blogs. Podcasting when he wasn't stealing deer and smiling as this and that says sa-thump to the usual pieties.
As a matter of fact you should listen to The Diamond at the End of Time at http://thejeunessedoree.libsyn.com/ to get the lowdown on all of this.
Because sometimes drafts can look gruesome, and the poet feels ashamed to admit to their peers that they are capable of writing such crap.
Because sometimes it's not the poem that's important, but the kudos the poem brings to the poet once it is lodged in the right place.
Because sometimes it's safer to be part of the herd, and not everyone can be as callously antisocial as me.
"Publishing" is not about just "processing" information in public, i.e., self-flagellating or diddling nude in front of your audience. It's about constructing a persona or self-portrait, for better or worse; as well as sprucing and pruning the shrubbery. There's nothing false about withholding views of the workshop. The elves frequently make mistakes, and the master still has the last say.
Ron's notion of a three-dimensional real-time transparency would create a chaos of mediocrity, a miasma of dreck.
One of his posts featured a work by Steve Benson. In it, Benson laid out casually his concept of process: "I don’t understand the difference between warts and perfection, either in my work or in a person...."
But acknowledging this possible truism does not constitute, for me, a philosophy of publication.
In the end, every "decision" to publish involves a preconception of eventuality, even when the process involves no revision, and no clear sense of its ultimate form or conclusion. One can have "live" poetry, but that by itself becomes a formal performance, even if clothed; and the rules and characteristics (and limitations) soon become evident over time (or reading).
We may write "whole" poems from scratch, but there's no guarantee we ever will, or will be satisfied with the implication of that potential. Writing isn't an involuntary form of babbling, or a trance-like state of semi-conscious verbal streaming.
At its worst, under-editing is as bad as over-polishing. Both extremes offer interesting possibilities, but neither is satisfying as an extreme emphasis. Writing which looks like it was either rushed out unedited, or over-worked and tedious--both are unacceptable in my view, unless tasted in moderation.
PFFA's NaPoWriMo forum
This is some 90 odd poets ranging from novice to accomplished writing a poem a day each through the month of April. While none of the participants would consider this to be "publishing" in it's formal sense, it is a sort of "publishing" in the communal sense in that everybody posts poems and goes along to see, read and enjoy other people's attempts at the stupidly impossible. (This is, incidentally, as close as pffa ever gets to being "the online equivalent of an open mic event", as Ron so wonderfully described the venue in his previous post).
The endeavour is certainly entertaining. It is also productive, in that most participants are hoping to generate material which can hopefully be turned into 1 or 2 "formally publishable" poems in due course. It's also something that just couldn't be done outside of the internet environment.
The idea of NaPoWriMo originated with Reen who blogs at st*rnosedmole - she's been doing this for 4 or 5 years now, inspired by the much bigger NaNoWriMo. It's this sort of thing that makes internet poetry so much more interesting than real-life poetry: the possibility of reclaiming the art as something that can be fun to watch and take part in, whatever people's ability level may be.
Let the good poems float to the top over the course of decades, I say. Fame is for dreaming, but fun is for now!
Rik
Well, that's part of your survey - and the most common - being 'published' on the web, vs being Published - in ten years they'll look back on this question and laugh...
as for print publications which shun work because it has a presence on the web, that's foolishness - and those publications should be flamed (of course, the postal service might get mad, carrying flaming letters...)
there's that catch-22 - waiting to get published in APR or simply putting your stuff out there - one is not publishing, because they hope to be published...
there's a good point - futuristic - private readership - I see it already happening...
hi joe -
I don't think he'd be bored, just disinterested...
Me and a friend were escorted out of a Duncan reading one time - we were just laughing - how could this dude take himself so seriously -
reading poetry aloud, and presenting it 'in print' are obviously two different things - both are right...
hey klaus,
yes, I've published in your zine...
it rocks...
w.
hey rik,
Seems to me you're doing it - sharing your work - (like your site) -
not saying I'm enamoured of your poetry, but that's not the point... many probably love it - and putting it out there is valuable...
me misunderstood - I never meant for poets to publish first drafts, just because they can, ... , of the 1000 poems I've published on the web, perhaps a half a dozen
are untouched first drafts... (it happens)...
I'm not getting all the kudos either - one of my negatives against blogs - bloggers clip and post my poems, with hardly any credit to me - and place them somewhere with a badly translated Michaeux, or something - really out-of-place, and without the copyright that was right there before their eyes - bloggers are pirates to me -
but I'm learning by becoming one...
hey curtis,
there is no master...
there is a god...
the mediocrity thing is a cliche... yes, there'll be alot of dretch served-up - but the discerning mind will be able to navigate around-through it -
Benson's statement was personal, you took it as political... - but I'm not game to the whole of it - just the fragment you presented...
you should write for 'Flash Art'...
seems what is writing escapes you...
I agree with the over/under evaluation - but it's not a conclusion...
hey rik, again,
'process-publishing' is a word? - thanks for turning me on...
so these threads, as I feared, are simply whoring...
w.
hey rik, again,
poetry must be fun to write, otherwise give it up - even if you're a tormented soul - have fun - that's what poetry is truly about - like accomplishing a jigsaw puzzle -
I agree,
w.
.
"But isn't that making for an incestuous in-bred environment, as Dana Gioia argued in "Can Poetry Matter", that is ultimately detrimental to poetry? It seems to me that the primary goal of a journal is to weed through the multitudes; but who will weed through the multitude of journals?"
That's the job for the critics. Someone like William Logan, though I doubt he "wastes" his precious time reading poetry on the web.
The great thing about the web is there will be/are thousands of people "publishing" poetry, reaching audiences--out from under the control of the old New York (and university press publishing machines. This liberation will return poetry to its provincial roots, while at the same time exposing it to an ever-widening panorama of audience. It's interesting to imagine how a movement like the Objectivists in the 1930's might have fared if the internet had existed. Would its influence have been greater? I.e., would there have been dozens of little "objectivist" imitators across the land? Would LZ's and CR's and GO's fame have been much greater?
The sorting process continues apace. But at least it won't be controlled by the literary power-brokers. Or, will it? Is Ron a literary power-broker now?
Hmm.
Even so, the internet poetry scene (inpoweb?) needs a much bigger network of commentators and opinion-formers to help the rest of the world find its way quickly to the various poetries each is interested in. The question is: can it be done without the intervention of commercial interest, or will we be facing our first Payola scandal in ten years time?
Rik (aka klawd)
Let's see of this comment will. (5 second pause) ... Nope. Still not famous.
I'm just hoping that when my poetry book gets published the bl-eaders will buy it. And if they don't I shall have to punish them by not blogging any more.
<< Home

