Friday, December 09, 2005

 

 

What about all this writing?

O “Kiki
O Miss Margaret Jarvis
The backhandspring

Named references in poems have variable half-lives, as their cultural signification both erodes & fossilizes. I have been told by people in a better position to know than myself that “Kiki” & Miss Margaret Jarvis in these famous lines from William Carlos Williams – the opening to the very best poem he ever would write – are in fact two separate people. There is no apparent way to know that in 2005 from the text itself. Any more than it is possible to deduce from the text of what may be Charles Olson’s most famous non-Maximus poem, “The Librarian,” the answer to the two questions on which it ends:

(What’s buried
behind
Lufkin’s
Diner? Who is

Frank Moore?

Dear Chris, we’ve read your name in Ted Berrigan’s Sonnets for so many years now, we feel that we know you, and we’ve been told that there are human beings that really do. But if Ted’s use of names is intimate, Pound uses them to intimidate – Pound expects us to know, in Canto LXXXIV, that Angold is a British poet who served in the Royal Air Force as a fighter pilot, but who in the 1930s sometimes wrote on economics, Pound’s obsession, in the New English Weekly, just as Pound expects us to know that τέθνηκε means, in Greek, than Angold is dead. But even Pound’s more “obvious” references, members of the U.S. Senate such as Bankhead & Borah, have faded almost entirely from memory in the six-plus decades since both men died. Of this can work in the other direction as well, as William Carlos Williams learned including correspondence from an unknown poet in Paterson by the name of Allen Ginsberg.

I think it’s open to question whether or not the New American Poetry’s introduction of what can only be called pop culture references in the 1950s & ‘60s was more of an innovation or simply an acknowledgement that a certain region of public space, public discourse, was becoming branded around personalities, from Daffy Duck to Lana Turner to James Dean. Nor was it just an affectation of the New York School’s affection for pop art – Amiri Baraka’s turn toward Mao in the 1960s often reads in his poems as a turn toward television as a field of reference.

Since then, the gates have been open. At one extreme, you can find a work like Ray DiPalma’sPeople Out On the Lagoon,” exploring the opacity of nameness itself, a place where words are most objectified. Words in this context have the same gaudy ornamentation as Christmas tree decorations. At the other, or at least an other, extreme, Rachel Loden’s ongoing engagement with Richard Nixon is an almost Dante-esque attempt to construct a mythological (if secular) vortex around which to elaborate her work. Aaron Belz partly echoes Loden’s strategy in his own new chapbook, Plausible Worlds, engaging the E! True Hollywood Story version of Americana as a landscape. Here is “In Bed with Meryl Streep,” which first appeared in Jacket 28:

Hard to believe your first movie
Came out in 1977 — you are timeless,
Like a Dracula statue in the rain:
And now, as you rub my shoulders,
Wearing that flowered nightgown,
We hear actual rain, or is it wind,
Rushing around our Buena Vista condo.
You flip off Cheers. I know what’s next.

Timeless is the word indeed. Our recognition of the layers of irony in this poem have much to do with just how long ago we imagine 1977 to be & whether or not Cheers is perceived simply as a television show or as an endless staple of syndicated reruns, a debased television show. Like the way Frank O’Hara never once names Billie Holiday in “The Day Lady Died,” Belz’ poem depends on our own prior knowledge of what these referents mean. There will come a day in which no reader understands who Meryl Streep was, nor what Cheers implies. There may even come a day, tho we won’t live to see it, when the Dracula reference here demands a footnote.

It’s interesting to imagine what a text like this can mean when the referents have been corroded by even just one century. Imagine, instead, “In Bed with Sarah Bernhardt”:

Hard to believe your first play
Came out in 1862 — you are timeless,
Like a Dracula statue in the rain:
And now, as you rub my shoulders,
Wearing that flowered nightgown,
We hear actual rain, or is it wind,
Rushing around our Milan pilazo.
You put down Bovary. I know what’s next.

It’s hard to imagine what a 1905 equivalent of a “Dracula statue” might be, given that I don’t think Belz is inferring Vlad III of Walachia precisely. One might even wonder if “flowered nightgown” doesn’t hold some temporal increment that will seem oddly quaint a century hence.

In fact, the erosion of reference in names flags the general – and constant – transformation of language itself. There is already a sizeable quantity of verse from the first decades of the last century (for example, much of the work of Adelaide Crapsey, George Sterling, Ina Coolbrith or Witter Bynner) that sounds, at best, irredeemably quaint, not just because they often chose forms that were already sclerotic, but also the specific language they used. Thus, the “dusking land” that pops up in Crapsey’s “Hypnos, God of Sleep,” tells us less about the time of day than it does the time of century in which that phrase was employed. In a somewhat similar fashion, Belz is taking a risk when he writes, in “Famous Palindrome,”

My girlfriend has a freaking weird name: Eman
Driewgnikaerfasahdneirflrigym.

that “freaking” won’t sound every bit as quaint a few decades from now as “dusking.”

I don’t sense that he’s worrying too much about this, which itself reflects an approach to art, to the idea of the poem & the role it plays in the world, that changes (or at least becomes, to use Belz’ word, plausible) with the New Americans as well. Pound certainly intended for his poetry to be read a millennium from now, intelligible or not – I doubt that Williams felt much different. But deep at the heart of Frank O’Hara’s “personism” is a very different sense of the poem – its use is personal, even intimate. When he refers to Bill & Joe & Jane & Ashes, O’Hara really means it. He wasn’t writing it for thee or me. If the poem should last & have other uses later, great, but that is hardly what writing is about for O’Hara. Or Belz. Indeed, I think that one could even say that part of the choice Baraka himself was making, turning away from his first cohort of Black Mountain-in-Manhattan compadres, was also a decision to make his poems more relevant in the moment, albeit to a different audience.

Belz writes a clean sort of post-NY school poem with a dry wit that belies his MA in creative writing (with Galway Kinnell as thesis counselor, no less), his current Ph.D. studies at the University of St. Louis (Devin Johnston nearly as improbable as his dissertation director) nor his graduate certificate in theological studies. With Jonathan Mayhew & David Perry, one might even start to detect a kind of trend here – writers with strong NY or NY School aesthetics all across the southern half of Missouri. With a nod to Black Mountain alum Arthur Penn, I think of them collectively as the Missouri Linebreaks. It would be interesting to think about why this, why here, why now, but mostly what I do when I read Belz (or Perry, or Mayhew) is enjoy, which so often does appear to be the point.


Comments:
The Donald Allen party line on O'Hara's intentions concerning immortality is that he intended to write an immortal poem, he just hadn't gotten there yet.

Whatever his intentions, I find that the O'Hara and the Berrigan legacy will involve 'people of the future' trying to enter their world through biographies, trying to get a sense of this moment in history. Soap operas dominate daytime television for a reason. As I said, I can see people reading 'De-Liberating Freedoms in Transit' to figure out what is going on in poetry now.

I guess this is a sensibility of mine that comes from a few years of reading lit crit on novels non-stop, that immoratality comes from passing on a moment in time, a place, and one's most personal responses to it.

If Pound's poems didn't contain arcane references, what would K.K. Ruthven and William Cookson do?

Abstraction without reference can of course also transmit the present, and I am not attempting to arrive at a formula for being immortal for mimetic-oriented readers to fill in the blanks of.
 
Wasn't Margaret Jarvis the nurse Williams banged at the local hospital?

Kiki was the Paris dancer, whom Hemingway wrote an essay about, I think.

"The furniture eats me" was once one of Barry Watten's favorite lines.

The power and affect of novels is that they are convincing or compelling "actions" that reveal character in action or under stress, in relation to other characters. Topicality is an immediate furniture ("meubles" in Olson's reference) that dates to the extent of its ephemeral specificity. Kinds of coaches or small boats in European novels of the 19th Century are quite arcane to us now, but that doesn't bother too much. Media material is much more problematic. O'Hara's liking Billie Holliday seems a broader and defensible cultural relationship upon which to build a lasting poem, than a TV soap opera. There's the issue of quality, and solidity of character. Holliday, after all, was a real person, not an actor or imaginary person.

On the other hand, good arguments can be made that Barbara Cartland and Jackie Collins will be avidly read and studied a century from now as revealing much more about who we were, and the daily world we occupied. Poetry seems a poor transmitter of specific cultural information.

As to whether or not it will eventually become too vague and arcane to be appreciated--that's an interesting question. Are Dryden's literary feuds and political satires closed to us now? Was Byron the first "media ikon"? Will James Salter's dogfights with MIGS in the sky over Korea someday sound like knights jousting on the fields of Normandy?
 
Howdy, Ron...

"The Missouri Linebreaks"?

Tee-hee.

Hmmmm...

The I-70(s) poets?

('85 Royals rule...here's a name for you: Buddy Biancalana!)

-David Perry
 
That's Roland Americo Biancalana, a Bay Area player (from Larkspur in Marin County), whose final game in the majors came at the fairly young age of 27. Classic "good hands, no hit" infielder.
 
"freaking"
"dusking"
"banged"

In full,
"In my life the furniture eats me."
 
I'll never forget hearing, on Pacific Theatre Armed Services radio, while driving down a rural road in Northern Japan, in 1985, a major league baseball broadcast in which Danny Kaye stepped into the booth for two innings as a color man and kept repeating, with evident delight and silliness, the name of a journeyman catcher by the name of Boccabella.

"Boccabella! Boccabella! Boccabella!"

One of those ultimate crazy surreal moments.
 
I was sorry to see the Giants trade Torrealba, the backup catcher, just because I once saw him hit a home run in SBC ballpark (soon, hopefully, to be Willie Mays Stadium at AT&T Park) & got to watch 40,000 people chanting his first name, "Yorvit! Yorvit! Yorvit!" It was a wonderful moment.
 
"(What's buried
behind Lufkin's
Diner? Who is

Frank Moore?"


Quoted on their own, these questions sound as if they're from a David Lynch script a la Lost Highway, in some cryptic, intense scene.
 
There is no question that Barry Gifford, who wrote the story from which Lost Highway was developed knows Olson's work, but the Olson poem dates from around 1950-52, Gifford's work from the 1980s.
 
do you have to say "banged" I mean really....[well, never mind..

but seriously...look what they've gone and done now. shot a guy dead just because he was having an anxiety attack; AFTER HE HAD LEFT THE PLANE ...turns out he had been doing missionary work providing free dental care to the poor in central america....disgusting; and they're proud of themselves. but hopefully they'll get a major lawsuit reamed up them

steve in taipei
 
for something to think about, go to the World Socialist Website. they have an article, "a day in the life of a Sri Lankan tea worker" tea from ceylon, this is how they get it.


steve in taipei
 
Yes, I've read Gifford's story, and of course he is three decades later - but out of time, it happened to strike me the other way round.

Gifford's own poetry doesn't (at first reading) seem to have much lineage to Olson but to a Corso, Ginsberg line, so it's interesting to see how his fiction / film scripts might trace that line instead.

I wonder if Lynch has read In Cold Hell, in Thicket ...
 
I have read a lot of Wlliam's work but I cant recall the poem quoted by him that is so famous -what is it? It sounds like a part of Patterson - I know that Ginsberg's letters are in Patterson.

Yes - Pound was a worry -trying to recapture history and continue in history - he influenced Olson and Zukofsky of course- - I think C. Bernstein - in his essay "Pounding Fascism" (in 'A Poetics') gives a good assesemnt -Pound is marvelous when he say rewrites something from Ovid -when Dionysius gets on the boat and all is transformed or his images and languages mix in such a way as to work off each other; and his writing starts working or we are encourged to appreciate other languages - he needed to go to all languages - he circled around the tradition -he got to China and the ideograms - but his sudden epiphanies of light are incredible -at his best a very great poem/poet - Belz's poem seems to have a touch of camp - a drier Ashbery -in the spirit somewhat of O'Hara -personism of O'Hara's is ok -we dont need to know O'Hara's friends (we all vanish ultimately) - some of Zukofsky's work would be formidable if critics hadn't got to the Black note books -and yet perhaps the best stands alone as "pure" poetry -per music - or an approach to that - names have a magical power...reference to the modish can be trap however -it works when done right - Berrigan knew how to mix it. Poeple will maybe realise in the future that the statue is something strange -Dracula will not need much digging out - even the sound of the name - what about Pushkin's poem "The Bronze Horseman"? (Is a the title?)
 
Belz's poems have a touch of Ashbery -- and he's been working in his dissertation on the angle in which much of contemporary poetry (esp. NY school) borrows from or is inspired by humorists.

At the same time Belz is a Presbyterian who went to an undergraduate institution steeped in steeples -- it's a Presbyterian school. I stayed with him once in St. Louis when we both read at the St. Louis Contemporary Art Museum last February. He's got a nice brownstone house built for the St. Louis World's Fair around the turn of the last century. It's a good neighborhood -- bookstores, Greek and Indian restaurants, basketball nets in the alleys, and his upstairs room is packed with the complete works of Ashbery, Ginsberg, and many other contemporary poets.

He's young, he's tall, and he's got a pleasant manner.

He drove me around St. Louis and showed me where Marianne Moore had once lived, where William Burroughs had once lived, and where T.S. Eliot had once lived. For people who can't afford New York it seemed to me that St. Louis had a lot of things going for it -- which is probably why people like Belz have stayed. The contemporar art museum had a big show of anime sculptures from Japan.

The ludic sensibility of the NY school appears to be spreading, and Belz is helping in its dissemination and explication. It's a phenomenon that I don't understand but that I do enjoy.
 
Oh but another thing about Belz's poetry as COMPARED to Ashbery's -- I think it could be said that Belz accepts this world in a different way than Ashbery does -- for Ashbery the world seems could I say -- elsewhere -- (in a Gnostic sense) whereas for Belz -- the world does seem to be quite thoroughly delightful -- I have another chapbook of his called Bangs published by Mass Deportation Press whatever that is, and there are so many good poems about the delightfulness of animals -- would Ashbery write such lines as these:

A flock of ravens followed me to the zoo:
there, they pecked at my soda.

And strange echoes of Charles Olson, too, as in this poem in which the title is based on the vowels in order in the alphabet

Edwin Applesauce Opens It Up

A tiny plucking of teeth, said Maximus, edging toward

I don't always understand Belz. He is a big guy -- I think his shoes are size 13 at least so I don't argue with him at least not in person, but I often wonder why or how his theological inclinations enter into his poetry and I think it might be in terms of the acceptance of the world as basically good but I mean isn't this kind of thing very silly, and isn't silliness difficult, but why was silliness so much a part of the NY School -- was it the opposite of high seriousness? As in Wittgenstein's line,

Never stay up on the barren hills of cleverness but come down into the green valleys of silliness.

Sometimes I have to wonder with Belz, like in poems like the following.

Dear Poem

Do you like fish
Write soon.

Here's a guy with size 13 feet writing poems like that. Shouldn't he feel ashamed?
 
Dear Kirby,

Do YOU like fish? I haven't asked, but i assume that you do, as you are something of a Scandinaviaphile.

You are onto something with the question about whether I should feel ashamed. I don't know whether i should or not, but I often do, thanks to my religious tradition and my place in the world. I am ashamed of my sexuality, my chest hair, my duplicitousness, my ignorance, my tendency to rush to judgment, my overconfidence, the hail dimples in my car, the pores on my nose, and thousands of other things. I guess my tendency to write 'silly' poems about these things (a fact about which I am also ashamed) is an act of repentance, of sorts. Another way my Presbyterianism has influenced my poetry is that it has given me an eery sense that everything has a time and place, that even the hairs of my head are counted, and the result is a queer sense of particularity not only of the stuff of the world, or of human action, but of language. Ashbery was a rural boy and maybe feels some of this, too. I had some pretty powerful vibes in upstate along the Hudson, in those 'kills' towns, and in Hoboken where I lived for a few years, of even the street names being a result of divine providence.

I'm more interested in the question Ron raises about permanance. After a reading I gave at the Ear Inn a few weeks ago (w/ Jordan Davis and Robin Beth Schaer, wow!), a woman raised the same question. She actually appreciated my ability to bring her poetry in terms she recognized. I argued the counterpoint, that pop references are inherently doomed, and she resisted, saying that poetry is for today & let the future take care of itself--another idea I grew up with, come to think of it. Matthew 6:34-- "Don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." A sentiment O'Hara might have agreed with.

I hadn't read much O'Hara until just recently.

One more thing, about St. Louis -- Kirby described it well, but let's not forget Kate Chopin, Sara Teasdale, Tennessee Williams, Howard Nemerov, Mona Van Duyn, Maya Angelou, and currently William Gass, Mary Jo Bang, Susan Schultz (who grew up just across the river), and a number of others recognized and unrecognized that have strong St. Louis connections. I often feel as though i live in a museum. It's almost a fictional city, because it has almost no self-consciousness about its own literary heritage. Missouri has also produced Mark Twain, Langston Hughes, James Tate, among others.

I'm not trying to get any of you to live here. Visitors are welcome, of course.

Thanks for the blog entry, Ron.
 
I tried to comment and it got swallowed, so I'll be briefer this time.

Aaron: I'm honored you have me growing up across the river, but I only spent years 0-4 in Belleville, Illinois (hometown of Rachel Daley). I am a St. Louis native by baseball obsession only!

Ron: how about reversing the field? Padgett and Berrigan moved from Tulsa to NYC...so the NY school is a midwest transplant? The only thing that bugged me about the blog on my work was the astonishment that anyone from the out-landish site of Hawai`i could have readers. I wish there weren't a need to claim all poetry for NY and San Francisco--there are lots of us out here from other places and with other readers!

Congrats, Aaron.

aloha, Susan
 
Kirby -- you come to Minneapolis and I'll show you where Berryman jumped AND the Mary Tyler Moore statue and the offices of the Lutheran Brotherhood. You will achieve synthesis and transcendence somewhere on the Skyway near Neiman Marcus. Do you a world of good. Also will get you into a good Lutheran mutual fund.
 
Dear Joe, I'm in the Lutheran Brotherhood and have been paying in since about age 3. But I would like to meet you and will some day go to Minneapolis and we can have a cup of Joe. I've been there several times to visit the Walker.

Aaron, I like fish, but it was the simplicity of the poem that I wondered about. Actually Aaron has much more complicated more technical poems that show a lot of versatility and skill and are almost hilariously polished -- he tends to underdo and to overdo as a form of comedy. I prefer the wildly overdone, but to combine it with the underdone is really fun too. Like throwing a fast curveball followed by a slow knuckleball to keep the reader off guard.

Aaron are your feet really that big as I said -- size 13? I have size 7s. I wonder what everybody's foot size is. You can tell a lot from foot size and also the kinds of shoes a poet chooses. I wear black Reeboks that are actually sneakers but look vaguely dressy. I think Ron should give us a photo of his shoe closet.
 
9-9 1/2, but my feet are short and quite wide, so I take whatever doesn't scrunch 'em up; recently, cheap black "combat boots" with added insoles. Can look dressy enough until they start falling apart after a couple of months. Converse hi-tops stretched well to accomadate me, but they've moved overseas for cheaper labor, and more expensive shoes on this end.

In any case, it's almost entirely practical. Nobody makes shoes that fit my feet...

Why I was interested in answering that question is probably more revealing than the answer. I wonder...
 
Hmm. So poems take place at a certain time and then history gets WRITTEN and then we can come up with a posthumous philosophy that is supposedly the driving force behind the poet? Not when you consider that the victor writes the history with the spoils of the war which was fought. That America was catapulted into this self analysis all of a sudden (oh...three or four decades of suddenness)...isn't about the truth but about the result. The truth lies somewhere in the reader if the reader decides (as with Cantos which I've only read a smattering of)to take on the healthy challenge of the research.
It still won't lead to a definition of the poets political stance unless the poet lived dangerously enough to take a chance on BEING RIGHT. That is the gamble and it is being described here as if the poet knows all along that they are right and will be read based on that moral distinction into the next millenium....a false premise if there ever was one because no one knows (in this case i.e. Iraq) the details leading up to it (here anyway) and no one knows who is right...er...well some of us bank on a few good hunches but still...the danger of becoming a Bertrand Russell whose views flip flopped so often on Nuclear Weaponry and turned him into a figure with a questionable view of reality (wasn't he an athiest too?).

Fence sitters. We've got this clause about fence sitters in there and one too, about poets...good poets and bad poets but necessarily poets are described in the Koran as being those who "say what they cannot do"....further reinforcing Joe Green's approach which seems to me to be that he doesn't prefer to invest that kind of assumption on something that is made miraculously and can be enjoyable to read and then...serve as a final judgement on the imperviousness of time to interpretation...His Diamond At The End Of Time...a generous read...fun and rollicking all the way through to the end and God there...after Butch and Sundance and the Nazis and Carrera near the border...the famous PEN stolen....by the white man. Ah...there is a poem that didn't TRY to define any political stance at all and in the end effectively discusses just about all of them (except Islam when in fact Islam describes Joe and Ron and Me and Kirby first)....

But still you cannot convince me that post search into the facts is any more true than an article in The Economist which tries to punch Russia in the gut for putting an oil executive in jail. It doesn't reflect what WASN'T mentioned but is KNOWN. And poems generally fare much better keeping some things quite to themselves. That much I find obvious in the BEST of the poems I've read (so few really) from Byzantium to this guy telling his poem to write to him in the morning. And a big hi to the guy with big feet...I liked your little ditty a great deal. There is this little pastor in Phoenix who runs the Desert Moon Review...Jim Corner and once he wrote this poem and I will always remember what he said there:

Hi world.

It was just lovely. It didn't tell me much other than about the terracotta pots he bought at Walmart (as is the case with JCorner) but even those terracotta pots are indicative of something if not James Corner's entire political and religious philosophy.
All we really know is that JCorner has one....and we all have one but we fail to be able to speak from our graves but a little.
 
In other words I cannot assume that because James Corner buys terracotta pots that he is either:

Gay
Religious
Politically correct
A hard core republican or a capitalist by nature
Right
etc etc

All I can say is he lives in a time (like all times) filled with certain norms and he chooses to address the world as an actual place in time with certain characteristics. A kind of poetry of witness. That famous type of deal that is perhaps the only really good political poetry being written right now in regards to politics..it just sits there and witnesses atrocities and actions and usually refrains from judgement. Because Islam is not generally dinner table discussion (I mean the REAL Islam, the philosophy which has taken ages to discuss by so many really important scholars both Muslim and Xtian and Jewish, et.al.)..it is not dinner table discussion in Hoboken. I've been there too...in my head. Just like some poets have been to feminism in their heads hahahaha....another school that Ron NEVER really gets into here or I've failed to see it mentioned. I've got some real axes to grind with those types hahahaha...

San Pantaleone Sees Anne Sexton On The Corniche In Beirut

-Becoming a parody of oneself is not so bad when you figure everything is a bit fetish, the tickling tease of the ego." - Dr. Soandso, 1990, Commencement address, Bryn Mawr: "The history of stereographic photos revealing ladies' bloomers and the moral controversies of our time."



Oh that divine itch!

The fuel of the fire, man
-the fractional distillation
-the rising to the top
-the sparkling rumination.

Oh that jet fuel!
How it makes us fly!

A system of clockwork,
spins its spine,
the Hurly Gurly
at Lunatic Park,
the Hurly Gurly
at Lunatic Park,
ferris wheel and gypsy
in our hokey hoboken
on the boardwalk
lit up in the dark,
the sea is waiting
to see under her skirt
her frantic nipples
and her eyes so alert!

Our Hurly Gurly of Lunatic Park.
 
aaron and kirby etc
yes the question of permanence -well nothing is - as far as I know - but I read (in translation ) the poems of Catullus and Martial -now they refer to people in their lives that we only know curtesy of the notes and we know almost nothing of Saphho's references - Martial and Catullus read like NY poets or London poets -whatever - even if we know nothing of Maddonna or Bush in 1000 if the poem is written with intelligence and wit and imagination etc we will recognise even through translations certain qualities -to jump to Celan - he is very difficult -his references require the reader to look at Pierre Joris's or someone's exegesis (I dont know German but I imagine he would be "hard" for German speaking readers also) -we need to know his parents were killed by the Nazis etc - with some poems we need to know nothing (or almost) - they may even seem totally 'non referential' (nothing is completely so) -or do we? - even the meanings and connotations of words change -they change constantly - "stench" once meant 'perfume' or pleasant odour -["the stench of paradise"] but I feel there will not be so much decay -entropy is at work - but - it is the energy/inspiration in poets that counts. One thinks of Koch,Elsmie,(Guest?) and Berrigan of course.
I also think of Schuyler eg his "Morning of the Poem " orhis "Picnic Cantata" - and that short poem also recalls Raworth's early poems...That is an interesting description of Aaron - Aaron should maybe ask Ron to publish a bit more of your book on his Blog - congratulations on getting a book out Aaron.
 
Pop references maybe doomed but the 'now' is eternal

One funny moment in an Ashbery poem was when he referred (almost en passant) not only to a picture by -it was David I think -and a knight is rescuing a maiden from a dragon (!) -but notes the detail of a small monstor or a dwarf or something by the lower coils of the dragon at the bottom rhs of the picture - of course such references such as this - and things like 'and we had all read Orlando Furioso' are written knowing that most people -even English Phd's haven't or will never (probably) read it and he doesn't care if the reader knows the painting he describes or have read Orlando Furioso (he probably hasnt!) - he saw it - and a lot of other things and is firing in all these crazy irrelevancies (but it will always be known that this
is his ironic method whether we know the references or not) - but there is also a deep beauty behind Ashbery's work - a sense often of enchanting sadness or mystery behind the irony camp and wit - it (the obscure references - or the pop references)is/are a part of the flow of his poem but also a joke. He is the Dark Joker? Poets are sad Jokers?
 
When I was in college I could fit into size 12C shoes and trousers with 32 M waist. Now I must have size 15E shoes and 40 L trousers. Don't ask Ron about his waist size--I'm afraid to....

That's a warning to all you wunderkind. As you age, it doesn't get any better, unless you're a ballet dancer or a health food nut.

I disagree with the bloggers here about ephemeral data. I think a poetry overweighted with contemporary media reference is going to decay very quickly. Such writing may have anthropological interest, at best, in the future.

One of the reasons we concentrate on "classical" subject matter (love and hate, joy and sadness, vivacity and dejection, order and chaos, a yearning for the absolute and the descent into sensuality) is that it doesn't date. Some people seem to be saying the more it dates, the more "present" it is, hence the more approachable and "relevant."

Be careful.
 
"Beauty is made up of an eternal, invariable element, whose quantity it is excessively difficult to determine, and of a relative, circumstantial element, which will be if you like, whether severally or all at once, the age, its fashions, its morals, its emotions. Without this second element, which might be described as the amusing, enticing, appetizing icing on the divine cake, the first element would be beyond our powers of digestion or appreciation, neither adapted nor suitable to human nature. I defy anyone to point to a single scrap of beauty which does not contain these elements."

-Baudelaire, 'The Painter of Modern Life'

_________

Can Kirby support his assertion by describing his inferences about Curtis and Andy from their shoe size and selection?
 
sound to me like a less witty "Portable Altamont" (Brian Joseph Davis) -- us Canadians are giving you cats a run for the poetry money.
 
I couldn't really picture the shoes that Andy describes. I don't know what a combat boot is, or what brand they are, so I can't tell for sure. Are they camouflaged? I think Aaron had dressy wing-tips on, perhaps purplish brown leather and in good condition. Curtis doesn't describe his actual footwear only his feet so it's hard to see -- feet are natural and can't be helped but shoes that are chosen and so represent long-term values as at least men tend to wear the same shoes every day until they get a new pair so the kind of shoes they chose mean a lot. Women tend to have a lot of shoes and change them a lot even when they aren't Imelda Marcos but there are always the same choices to look at -- comfort versus fashion (not necessarily a strict dichotomy) -- few women poets would wear high heels I assume because of fear of feminist critique, but sneakers on the other hand wouldn't get you many dates and I think most women poets want to be kind of alluring don't they, just as the men poets do? We're not plumbers for a reason, I suppose.

I think Aaron's shoes implied professionalism and an ability to be taken seriously in the business community (he was teaching in a high school when I met him, and may still be doing that and high schools require something of their teachers that say colleges don't quite require as college teachers are often quite out of it fashion-wise lost in their heads while high school teachers have to be a little more present tense)
 
Jonathan:

You Canadians are so insecure!

Always worrying about being "left out" of the North American pantheon.

Just do your thing! You don't need America, and America doesn't need you (no sarcasm intended).
 
Dodging the question again.

"You can tell a lot from foot size." - K. Olson

"You can't get anything in my size?" - C. Olson
 
If Charles Olson had the biggest feet around apparently the tiniest of all poet feet belonged to Raymond Roussel. His feet were so small he had to have his shoes specially tailored.

Ian, I still need specifications of Curtis' and others shoes. Shoes for men tell you everything you need to know about them, I promise. But I can't work without precise details. Tell me your shoe size, the make, and I'll tell you your destiny.
 
The whole 'make' of shoe aspect is a little light on Freud and heavy on prep school for my tastes. Methinks you hear Codrescu's "I wore my Reeboks to a frazzle" from 'Belligerence' on the way to the strip mall.
 
Depending on the brand of shoe, I fit into anything from an 11 1/2 to a 12 1/2 nicely.
 
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It's difficult to find anything for cloven feet outside of a certain shop in Italy. I swear I saw Kirby there two years ago when I shopped for my special boots -- yellow ascot, blue blazer, white trousers someone named Gina pouting in the entryway who trampled on the "Portable Wodehouse" with her six inch heels and then begged me not to tell you?
 
"His Diamond At The End Of Time...a generous read...fun and rollicking all the way through to the end and God there...after Butch and Sundance and the Nazis and Carrera near the border...the famous PEN stolen....by the white man. Ah...there is a poem that didn't TRY to define any political stance at all and in the end effectively discusses just about all of them (except Islam when in fact Islam describes Joe and Ron and Me and Kirby first)...."

I left out one or two others I bet.
 
Army boots; black canvas with some kind of imitation leather on the toe part, going just under halfway up to the knee. Eyeholes most of the way up and then those metal bracket things the laces go around for the last three passes.

Again, though, I only wear 'em 'cause they fit.

I prefer barefoot, though--I can walk over broken glass without it cutting my feet after many years of thickening.
 
Nay...Diamond is the best action film ever shot in poetics (in my humble opinion). The chandelier swinging can't be beat (and one connotes a certain hesitation over the Wife Swapping hahahaha and one doesn't even dare to imagine what might be imagined one day should you and C not practice faithful monogamous and straight up 'you know what'). It is the Prufrock Postulate if you ask me....who WERE those women and why did they keep coming in to look at Michelangelo? Beats me but I'm glad they did. One of the most musical lines ever written.

Run. O Run is also quite positive in the sense of running through a department store and avoiding those nasty ovipositors. Damn...they might even call you anti feminist over that one day.
In any event 'they' will now haha.

But who cares when in the end it is about the poem that you can drive home in (Joe's words, not mine)...you need to be able to wear it and not necessarily use it...although that is always a nice to have. A poem that a person can live in for a few moments or hours...maybe even carry around for a lifetime and have it discuss a little of the rest of 'what is going on'.

And how it is, going on right now.
Just barrelling somewhere towards that Diamond aspect....if we only knew what that meant. We do try and that is truly what I think should motivate a poet. The DEMAND to understand or to be understood plus the enjoyment of achieving one or the other or both.

Can I die now? I really think it would be the best thing. Just shoot me. I'll tell you where...right in the craw....right in the Vince Foster.
 
Just went through my notes and Belz has only size 11 shoes. He lived in a 3-story woodframe house with brownstone steps on Washington Ave in St. Louis. To my shock he ate meat and he smoked. He is half-German and one quarter Irish. He has three children -- very cute -- all three are carrot tops. His house was built in 1903 for the St. Louis World's Fair. A very European pigeon sat on the roof of the house looking like Falstaff.
 
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